Program: Paying for sex at 70

Gail

I had the champagne on ice, I had the bathtub filled with bubbles, I was there a couple of hours earlier and I knew I had to go down the elevator to pick him up in the lobby.

Yumi

Gail Rice is meeting Chris at the foyer of a hotel she's booked in the city near Sydney Harbour. He's a sex worker or escort. She brings him back to her room. He's cute, really cute.

Gail

I was sitting there looking at him. I felt totally at ease with this. I forgot he was younger. I forgot I was older.

Yumi

Gail's a psychologist with an exacting white bob. She's used to tending to the needs of others. But in this hotel room with Chris, she wants him to take charge.

Gail

So, we have the champagne and instead of pouring the second glass, I say to him, OK, now what now? And he said, which I was really pleased, he said, we'll start with the massage. Which meant it wasn't that sexy because it meant I just took off my clothes like I was having a massage, but it meant I didn't need to jump right into the intimacy bit. So, lying on the bed and having the massage felt rather safe. So that's how it started.

Yumi

I've been speaking to women about sex and relationships for years. People have told me about their kinks, their failing marriages, their experiences as sex workers themselves. But it's rare for a woman to be open about paying for sex. And we've never talked about it before on this podcast. So naturally, I was intrigued to speak with Gail Rice about her recent experience with escorts. 

Now aged 71, Gail is refusing to live a life without eroticism. She wants sex and touch and to be seen. So, she's paying for it. Gail's experiences with male sex workers left her learning much more about herself than she could have expected when she first typed in ‘escort services Sydney’. This is a conversation about erotic power, having needs, ageing and how to ask for what you actually want in bed. I'm Yumi Stynes, ladies, we need to talk about women paying for sex with Gail Rice. 

Gail grew up in Canada in the 1960s. Home was tricky. Her mum had a number of mental health issues and she learned not to rely on intimate relationships too much.

Gail

My mother got very overwhelmed when her fourth child was born. And like so many mothers at that time, there was no help for her. And it meant that she didn't get the right help. So it meant she wasn't really able to be there for the family. So, at 11, I got a baby sister that really for the next seven years I mothered.

Yumi

You mean you were mothering a baby? 

Gail

Yes. 

Yumi

Like a little baby? 

Gail

Yeah. Well, my mother was there. My mother was there. She was there, but she wasn't dependably there. And so I guess that experience taught me at the end of that, I just wanted to get out. I just wanted to be independent. There's no way I wanted children. There's no way I wanted a relationship. I mean, the good thing it taught me was really confident about myself. I mean, at 13, I thought I knew everything and I was managing lots of things that a 13-year-old shouldn't have been doing, but I was doing them really well.

Yumi

But you think it impacted your romantic relationships?

Gail

Yeah. I think I learned that getting too close to people makes you too responsible. I think I learned that I had to be hyper-vigilant about other people's needs, and I was tired of that by the time I was 18 or whatever it was. And I think I just learned you couldn't trust being around other people's big emotions.

Yumi

In other words, Gail was never interested in being a wife. Not a wife and not a mother.

Gail

I'm an independent person. Dependency is bad. I entered lots of relationships, but I never fully, vulnerably showed up. I got into these serial monogamy things, and I didn't stay long and I always left.

Yumi

Long-term commitment was unpalatable for Gail, but that didn't mean that intimacy wasn't tasty. 

Gail

I learned that sex is something you just, you do, it sort of was available, you did it. Sex became a way to connect like a currency. I wouldn't have had the confidence to use it just as a one-night stand thing. I just couldn't have done - I needed to connect first. Yeah. So when I think about it, it just wasn't that great, but I kept having it, and I actually, if you'd talked to me then, I probably would have said it was great. I had no idea what great was. 

Yumi

Were you having orgasms? 

Gail

No 

Yumi

Okay.

Gail

No, a little later I did, but not very often. But in the early pieces, no, and you know, I hate to say it, I mean sadly I might not have known even what I was looking for.

Yumi

This is so interesting to me because even someone as sure-minded as Gail, clear that she didn't want kids and clear that she didn't want marriage, was still getting scraps of good sex and being told that it was a feast.

Gail

It was that sense of the male orgasm, the woman's experiences around that, for me in my 20s, in my teens and 20s. It was around that, and I just thought that was kind of normal. 

Yumi

While Gail wasn't looking for a husband, she did get used to having an abundance of sexual options available.

Gail

I could meet people whenever I wanted. I could start relationships. I was so confident about that bit of my life. Like I was just flying as an independent young woman. So I always think of it a bit like musical chairs. I loved it, the music, you know, lots of dancing, lots of sex partners, sit down, change a partner, go on to the next one, and then all of a sudden in my 40s I realised everybody had gone home.

Yumi

And you were just there shuffling around in a chair.

Gail

I was still ready to go. I was still ready to go. So I think that was a bit of a shock.

Yumi

Before the music stopped and everyone else had gone home, could you walk into a bar or I don't know where you're travelling, but walk into a busy, crowded place and pick up if you wanted to?

Gail

I think I could do that in my 20s. I'm not sure I could do that in my 30s. I also think, Yumi, I wasn't looking to pick up. So I was comfortable in a bar. I was comfortable travelling on my own. I wasn't looking.

Yumi

I'm curious if you tracked the way that the world looked at you, the way that you appeared in the gaze of others over the years as you've aged from being a hot 20-year-old, you know, and then ageing into a more confident 30- and 40-year-old to an older woman. How have those changes felt to you?

Gail

Well, I think I was my least confident in my 40s, 50s. I think that was the slump for me. And I think back in my 20s and 30s, but I certainly thought I was somebody that was attractive. I could hold a conversation. I was attractive. I had a life. Myself in my 40s and 50s had some wobbles and I also found my stability at the same time. So I went from the running girl to a bit of a slump to then the stable girl who gets a real job at 50. The person I am between 50 and 70, I don't shrink. I don't shrink in the world. I feel quite confident in the world. I think I carry myself quite comfortably. So I don't feel in that way like an old person. So I still feel vaguely attractive in a funny way because I still get noticed, but I don't feel sexually attractive. I feel like so many women over 50 probably, I'd say, we no longer are seen as a sexual being.

Yumi

So after turning 50, Gail tried online dating. That was 20 years ago.

Gail

So dating apps were fairly new. That I think was the one time in life I was looking for a partner. I thought, okay, I'm 50, a bit late, but there you go. Maybe now I can do it. 

And what happened then was not good because I actually made two really bad choices in my 50s of people I met online. And I fell for the love bombing thing and I'd never in my life, ever in my life fallen for that. And I was in hook, line, and sink with both these guys. Twice I did it. I bought it so much with one of them, I moved in for three months. So that was my 50s dating experience. 

Then I had a break. Then I went back on to my 60s, knowing full well I wouldn't do that. But by that time, these men that were talking about their deceased wives or their golf score or men wanting to split a coffee bill or men that couldn't walk around the block, just men in cardigans, men that just didn't do a thing for me, old men. And of course they were because I was older. So that was in, I quit that in my mid-60s. I just, I mean, it was a realistic decision I made. I thought, not worth it. I don't need a partner. That's why I got scared at 70, I think. The feeling of being connected, the feeling of touch, was so absent in my life.

Yumi

Gail was craving physical connection. She treated herself to massages for touch and human connection.

Gail

That was the thing that didn't have the eroticism to it. And massages, I get them regularly, and they're very good. But I needed something that touched a more sensual level of myself, more sexual sensual level, I guess, of myself.

Yumi

There's this perception that I share, I think, that when you get older, the dial on your sexuality is turned down a bit. It's still there, but it's not so feverish. Yes. Is that true for you?

Gail

I think that's absolutely true. But again, I'm not sure I was feverish. I'm not sure I allowed myself to be too feverish anyways. Yeah. But it feels more solid. The less fever was a good thing. It felt like it can be slower and less frenetic, which is what he's saying about the young women want the hot sex. And, you know, he's saying that's lots of penises and vaginas and jumping around. Whatever. Thrusting. Thrusting and all that stuff. And I do think there's lots of, you know, physiologically, there's lots of reasons too why older women don't want or have as much sex.

Yumi

As a psychologist, Gail has worked with couples where men enjoyed sex more than their wives did. It made her reflect on the gendered performances she's acted out over the years in her own sex life.

Gail

I guess for men, I mean, I'm kind of envious of them because not many of them see it as a chore.

Yumi

Well, because they're doing what they want. 

Gail

That's it. And we're doing it with them. Again, it comes back to us too. We, as women, and I think, thank goodness it's changing now, but we have, I certainly did, allowed that to happen in my sex life, allowed it to be concern about, and not necessarily just pleasing him, but being a nice person, like being a person that wasn't too needy, being a person that to say to a man, I'm disappointed in sex with you. It's not just the woman who's not asking it loses, her partner loses too, because if she's like me, not present.

Yumi

Remember this, ladies, because you'll soon hear how this concern that women have about being a nice person can play out even when paying for sex. But first, let's get to how Gail made that big decision to pay a man to have sex with her. 

Gail

So how I got to this point with the escort was actually facing mortality, actually facing my 70th birthday.

Yumi

Yep, it's a milestone. So I asked a few people what they would do for a woman turning 70, and they said make a photo slideshow. High tea was also suggested. No one suggested getting naked with a hot stranger. 

Gail

I sort of felt like I had to do something that woke me up, that sort of gave me an adrenaline rush. So I had two ideas. One was jumping over a plane and the other was an escort. So it was really an equal, an equal either or. Was it? It was an equal choice because both were exhilarating. Both had me strapped to a stranger in some way, male probably, and one was a lot more expensive, was the option I chose. It was the adrenal rush. It was like how do I get plugged in to my body?

Yumi

The first time Gail paid for an escort, it was with a guy called Mitch. He was $1,750 for three hours. She found him online and planned it all, booked a fancy hotel with a big view of the city. Before he arrived, Gail took a moment to look at her naked body in the mirror.

Gail

That's not a good moment. Really? No. That's not a good moment. Partly because again you're thinking, oh, the sexy and the champagne and the hotel room and then you look and you realise, okay, there's an, because who I want to see in the mirror is my 30-year-old self. That's who I'd love to see in the mirror, my 30-year-old self. But I can kid myself because once I get clothes on, I can be okay.

Yumi

Gail swallowed her self-consciousness and brought escort Mitch into the room. But instead of being focused on her pleasure and her body, the dynamic cascaded into a people-pleasing interaction focused on him.

Gail

And what happened was into about an hour and a half, we're still drinking champagne and I'm still interviewing him. I'm halfway in and he's not doing anything. He's not initiating? No, no, not touching. He's loving being interviewed. Oh, he's loving talking about himself. Funny thing about men, loving being interviewed.

Yumi

Well, also you're a therapist so you're good at asking questions.

Gail

Oh, I was very good at asking questions and I was interested in his life in escort. So it was, I don't even know how to, the best way is to go to the end. Yeah. Where I was falling asleep because I was so bored. Oh, Gail. And he was sort of saying, oh, you're so relaxed. I said, well, no, I'm actually, I didn't have the guts to say I was bored.

Yumi

People pleasing, being nice. Gail wasn't nice. She was frustrated. She wanted to be seen and pleasured, goddammit. So finally she got the shits.

Gail

I just said, no, this isn't working. And he said, sometimes there's not a connection. And I thought, well, actually I'm paying him $1,700 for this event. Yeah. I don't need a connection. I need you to do your job. I knew at that point he hadn't done his job. So I said, 15 minutes before my time was up, I said, I think you have to go. He was devastated. I thought he was going to start to cry. Oh, god. He was so upset. And I just thought, just get out of here.

Yumi

Escort hookup number one was a big fat fail. Gail contacted the escort company he worked for and they gave her a full refund. The experience left her deflated, but it also sparked some self-inquiry. Why had she been so appeasing? Why couldn't she demand what she wanted from the sexual experience, especially when she was paying so much for it?

Gail

I was still doing the nice girl thing. I was still doing this guy knows his job, surely he'll do it.

Yumi

Gail wrote a first-person piece about her experiences with Mitch, and it was published by an online media outlet. She was candid about her frustrations with him and how the experience left her feeling dissatisfied. Then the comments section got ugly.

Gail

Men kind of denigrating why an older woman would think it should be a good deal to meet a younger guy.

Yumi

I didn't see the comments. 

Gail

What were people saying? Oh, well, they were comments like, get a dog. How do you think a 40-year-old man could keep it up for a 70-year-old woman? You've got to be kidding. You thought this would turn out well. How dare you ask for a refund? The poor guy did the best job he could do. But what was interesting, because it was online, I could see women responding to these guys saying you missed the whole point. So something in that made me really angry, and it made me think, I guess, even more about the refund, like how dare you ask for a refund? That's the thing maybe that tipped me over. I thought, no, I dare ask for a refund because it wasn't enough and I deserve more. And that is, I think, that anger made me think I'm going to show myself and show them that I have every right as a 70-year-old woman to, I don't need a dog, thank you very much. I can go have sex with a stranger if I want, and I'm going to get this time what I want.

Yumi

Fuelled by Moxie and with a big middle finger to online bullies, Gail mustered up the spirit for escort number two, Chris. Greyish brown hair, soft arms, approachable smile. He'd been referred by a reader. Gail was gaining the power to have the kind of sensual experience she wanted, not just as an older woman who wanted sex, but as a woman who'd previously spent her whole life focused on male pleasure over her own. He was an

Gail

incredibly attractive guy, very fit but not, because that's the other thing when you look online for escorts, you can imagine what you see, a lot of pumped. It's a bad look. A lot of pumped men with hardly anything on and just hard, you know, that hard muscle thing. Oh, and hairless. Totally hairless. And just posing and hard. I just imagine how hard their bodies would be. But Chris, he was fit but not hard. And from the moment he sat down, really easy to talk to, he was quite attentive. He felt like a person I liked and we had stuff and we laughed. And see, the other thing I found important was Chris versus Mitch. We laughed a lot, Chris and I, and to me that tells me I'm relaxed.

Yumi

Gail wasn't going to spend the appointment getting his life story.

Gail

I knew if I was going to get what I wanted this time, I needed to give him space to give me what I wanted. Yeah, sure. So he said, we'll start with the massage, which meant it wasn't that sexy because it meant I just took off my clothes like I was having a massage, but it meant I didn't need to jump right into the intimacy bit. So lying on the bed and having the massage felt rather safe.

Yumi

So that's how it started. Yeah, and I'm guessing also being face down like that. That's big help.

Gail

Face down and I know how to have a massage. I do too. You just give in with a massage, don't you? I mean, there's nothing I need to do. I don't need to position my body. They position it. So it was a really good start.

Yumi

Chris seemed to know what to do, but Gail had made sure to set out her expectations before the massage even started. She wanted him to perform oral sex and to touch her with his hands, and they were not going to have penetrative sex.

Gail

I feel that gets too close for me about having to do something with what he needs. Sure. If that makes sense. Yep. It feels more like it's a total giving the other way, the oral sex or just hands, because he doesn't need to be in any position to do that. He doesn't need to have an erection. He doesn't need to. It's not my problem. Then Gail got naked. It's interesting. A 70-year-old body, like that was pretty challenging, taking off my clothes in front of a 40-year-old male. Like, hmm, challenging. Yeah. And I don't think I could have done it 10 years ago, but somehow it doesn't, it's really interesting. The beauty of aging is it doesn't matter anymore or whatever. This is, I've got a healthy body. I'm happy in it. It's not what it was, but it still works. So in finding my voice, I kind of found my body. And when I think about the escort, it really, I mean, yes, it was about sex, it was about an orgasm, an erotic massage, but it actually was more about needing touch, needing to be seen. For me, it was learning to be vulnerable. And same about jumping on the plane. I guess that's why the two of them kind of go together for me. It's like letting go of control.

Yumi

With her second escort, Chris, Gail could let go of control, and it's clear now that that's what was lacking with her first escort, Mitch.

Gail

I was still in my controlling self. Caretaking. Person. Mm. And when I think of, I mean, when I think of my relationships overall, my relationships overall look more like Mitch.

Yumi

The first escort, the one she got a refund for.

Gail

Making sure that I was in control. Making sure the guy was okay. Making sure I didn't disrupt things. Making sure I didn't look too needy. All of that. With Chris, I thought, well, I am needy. I'm asked for this thing. So that's what made it totally different. It took me a number of months to realize, I guess, to have the guts. This time I'm not going to get a refund because I'm going to know how to get what I want. And part of that was saying to Chris from the start, I'm shutting up now. I'm not asking any more questions. You're in charge. You tell me what to do. Great. Like, I'm not in charge, you are.

Yumi

Gail wasn't just paying for sex. She was paying for a man to see her, to attend to her, to take care of her for a few hours. And in doing that, she sent an important message to herself.

Gail

The main thing is, like, dare to feel that you deserve to ask for something. Your body still needs something. Doesn't matter what age it is. Mm. I'm finding even now, having had the experience with the escort, I'm hugging my friends more. I find it's just sort of knowing you get a bit of touch and you think, oh, that's a reminder. We need more of it. Get it wherever you can.

Yumi

Yeah. When I read your articles, Gail, I was really excited. And I thought, for sure, this is going to be Gail's hobby now.

Gail

Yeah, that's my new hobby, yes. I love that. It's an expensive hobby.

Yumi

Yeah, it's expensive. But also, you deserve it. That's right. You work hard, but you've only done it a couple of times. What's your plan for the future?

Gail

Well, my plan for the future, I want to get this erotic massage going now. I would probably try someone new again. I think, I don't know, maybe it would be a birthday thing. Or I think first, if I get the erotic massage, because I'm not sure that might be the thing that I do longer term. I wouldn't go back to Chris. As good as he was, I need it to stay as a separate thing. Okay. I don't want to develop a relationship with an escort. I need to say, now I want this, I'm new, it needs to be fresh every time. That feels very clear to me. The erotic massage is actually more interesting to me now, because it's in some ways even more skilled. It's more of a full body, real letting go thing. Yeah. So I'm intrigued with, now I'm on the hunt for that. 

Yumi

There's a movie called Good Luck to You, Leo Grand, where Emma Thompson plays Nancy, a widow in her 60s, who hires a young sex worker to help her have an orgasm for the first time. At the end of the film, Emma Thompson's character gets completely naked, and in the mirror, she looks at her beautiful, soft, post-menopausal body adoringly.

Gail

That might be the next challenge. Standing in front of the mirror with an escort and just staying there with that sense of, this is me. I like that, because that's actually really showing up. For this, before you get into bed, before anything else happens, just as she did in that movie, you just stare in the mirror at yourself, at this body. With him as the second eyes, I think it would be, that would be much harder than what I did. Much harder than hiring him for the orgasm and the erotic massage. But I think in some ways that would be the most exciting thing, because that's about what I want to be able to do, to see myself. To be alive in my body. And be seen. And to be seen. And be seen. I'm ready to come out. I'm coming out. 

Yumi

You did it! Yay! Thanks, Gail Rice, for talking to me today.

Gail

Thank you, Yumi. It's been so delightful talking to you.

Yumi

As women, we are taught that being needy is terrible. Oh my God, she's so needy! But being able to have your needs satisfied often means knowing what you need and finding the courage to ask for it, demand it, even pay for it. Being sexually desired can be joyful, enlivening and, dare I say, validating? Like feeling that sparky feeling when someone you fancy touches the small of your back and their hand lingers just a little bit longer than necessary, and the eye contact is scorching, and your own undies seem to just want to slide down your legs. 

But when women age and people don't see us as sexy hotties anymore, or the musical chairs of partnering up has just come to a stop, it is up to us to define the rules. What is sexy? What do we want? How do our bodies deserve to be touched and listened to? Maybe it takes you 70 years to find that power. And maybe, ladies, it was there all along. Ladies, We Need To Talk is mixed by Ann-Marie de Bettencor, it's produced by Elsa Silberstein, supervising producer is Tamar Cranswick, and our executive producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan.