Program: Task paralysis and procrastination - why it's so hard to get sh*t done

Eva: So I have two tasks. There's a science assignment and there's a HASS assignment. The science one is a write up for like an experiment we did. And that is due at the end of the term, which is in two days.

Sana Qadar: Oh my God. Soon.

Eva: Yeah, I haven't started it yet.

Sana Qadar: Oh no. Are you freaking out? Yeah. Oh my goodness. What are you going to do?

Eva: Um, probably try and speed run it. Probably ask the teacher for an extension.

Sana Qadar: You know, it's not often at the ABC that we hear from 13 year olds telling us they love a show. Certainly not at Radio National. It's never happened on All in the Mind. So when a 13 year old messages to say they are a big fan, you notice.

Eva: I'm Eva. I am 13 years old and I am a student in high school.

Sana Qadar: Eva wrote in not just to tell us she loved us. Thank you, Eva. But also to describe a feeling she's been having more frequently.

Sana Qadar: And so why have you not done the science report yet? Like what is your thinking whenever you think about it? Why don't you do it?

Eva: It's either like a sense of overwhelm because I'm thinking about all the tasks I haven't done. How everyone else is way ahead of me and all that sort of stuff. Or it's like a sense of doom because it's like if I do this and I hand it up and I get a bad grade for it, then that's going to be hard on my mental health. And then if I do it, then that means the task is real. And then it's just like, oh no. So then my brain kind of shuts down and it's like, just don't, don't do anything.

Sana Qadar: This is a relatively new feeling for Eva. She only started struggling with assignments like this in the past year. And for a while she didn't know what was going on. And then her school counsellor told her about task paralysis.

Eva: She was like, this is probably what you're experiencing. And then so I did a bunch of research on it. And I was just like, yeah, that's definitely what's going on. And then I went on to podcasts. I was like, oh, All in the Mind has probably done something on this. And then I couldn't find anything. So I was like, huh. So then I just wrote in.

Sana Qadar: So today we are rectifying that because task paralysis is interesting. It sounds like it could be a pseudo-psychological term cooked up on social media. But that's not quite right. It's often associated with ADHD. But that's also not the only context it can pop up. And you might be thinking, isn't task paralysis just procrastination? Well, the two are related, but they're not the same.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: If we have task paralysis, then we're likely to then delay the task, which is the definition of procrastination. But procrastination isn't always caused by task paralysis.

Sana Qadar: And look, if you're someone who finds yourself often battling procrastination, whether it's caused by task paralysis or another reason, you'll know it can start to affect all aspects of your life, your work, your mental health, your taxes. I at one point racked up five years of unsorted out taxes.

Sana Qadar: And so as each year clicked by, the panic would just sort of rise, but then I'd shove it further down. Is that like a really abnormal story? Am I completely, you know, off the charts bad?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Give my professional opinion as a psychologist?

Sana Qadar: Yeah, I need this episode as much as Eva does. Today, task paralysis, procrastination, why we struggle with these, and how you can possibly maybe break free. I'm Sana Qadar from ABC Radio National. This is All In The Mind.

Sana Qadar: So what was the science experiment that you did that you have to write up the report for in two days?

Eva: It's really boring. It's called Footy Colours. It's a weird name, but basically we have to do all these different, like, put these different chemicals in test tubes. And then they're meant to come out as like the colors of the different footy teams. And I think it worked out too well.

Sana Qadar: It didn't work out too well?

Eva: Yeah, because the colors didn't really reflect the teams that well.

Sana Qadar: Eva is a total character, as you're going to notice. She's got heaps of personality, heaps of gumption.

Sana Qadar: And so how long has this science report been hanging on your to-do list?

Eva: About three weeks.

Sana Qadar: And what do your parents say about your task paralysis?

Eva: I don't talk to them about it. They think I'm all good with all my schoolwork because I get A's and B's somehow.

Sana Qadar: Right, so you still manage to get good grades despite this.

Eva: Yeah, because I get a lot of extensions. I find it easier to, like, teachers always say yes when I ask for an extension because of my stuff with mental health and stuff.

Sana Qadar: And so will this podcast be the first time your dad's hearing about this science report that you haven't done yet?

Eva: Yeah.

Sana Qadar: All right, all right. I like your style.

Sana Qadar: Okay, I feel like I should throw a disclaimer in there. Eva's parents gave us permission to chat to her. In fact, her dad is sitting right outside the studio that Eva is in in Adelaide. Now, her procrastination might be a bit more extreme than others, but Eva's not exactly unique either. Because students have been procrastinating homework for probably as long as homework has existed. And that includes students at any age.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: I work predominantly at the moment with students and students who are studying to be registered psychologists. So procrastination is quite often talked about and worked through in terms of, you know, demands on students.

Sana Qadar: This is clinical psychologist and senior lecturer at the University of the Sunshine Coast, Catherine Houlihan. She says there are key differences between procrastination and task paralysis.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Procrastination is a behavior. And so there is some element of choices and there's lots of different reasons why we can procrastinate, which I'm sure we'll get into in the conversation. Whereas task paralysis is more kind of reactive and it's involuntary, really. It can make a comparison to that freeze response, if you've heard of the fight flight freeze response in terms of managing anxiety. Almost certainly always this kind of overwhelm or this flooding or this overload of information that makes it hard to begin. So I would say task paralysis is probably pretty unpleasant, involuntary and reactionary and it's quite immediate. Procrastination is something that we all do. It's a human behavior. The reasons why we do it are much probably more broad ranging than task paralysis.

Sana Qadar: Basically, there are many emotional pathways that can lead to procrastination and task paralysis can be one of them. We'll get to some of those other broader reasons or pathways in a moment. But let's just stick with task paralysis for now because one thing to note is that it's not a clinical diagnostic term. It's definitely more colloquial than that. And therefore, in terms of the research, there isn't really much on it. It's only mentioned in passing in a handful of papers and most of those papers were only published in the last couple of years. So in the research literature at least, it's still a very new idea. But that's not stopped outlets like the New York Times or the Telegraph in the UK or clearly us from talking about it. And that's because as Catherine tells me, it can be a useful shorthand for describing what is often essentially an anxiety response. And so the key, she says, is understanding that task paralysis is probably just a symptom or expression of another issue. And one group that would be very familiar with the feeling are people with ADHD. So much so that another name for task paralysis is ADHD paralysis.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yes, I think task paralysis is really common in ADHD because of the issues with executive functioning that can occur with ADHD. So executive functioning means things like planning, organization, just that the way that the brain works is just different to a non-ADHD brain. And so those executive function tasks can be a bit disrupted, particularly with tasks that require like planning, attention, organization, and also kind of self-monitoring and self-focus with how we're doing with the task and how much time do we have left and things like that. So it's natural for that system to become quite flooded and overwhelmed and for the person to react in a kind of with task paralysis.

Sana Qadar: For 13-year-old Eva, that's not the cause of her task paralysis. She doesn't have ADHD. She's got a few ideas about why she might struggle with it. But before we hear from her again, I just want to flip back to procrastination, because remember, that's the overarching behavior, and pick up on something that Catherine said a moment ago. So procrastination, you were saying we all do it. Is that correct? Because I wondered if there were like certain magical people who don't procrastinate.

Sana Qadar: I'm not one of those people.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: No, I'm not one of those people either, and I've never met one of those people. I think procrastination quite simply is the act of delaying a task. So I don't know anybody in life that would complete all tasks at the time that they planned to do them. But some people do it more than others, and for some people it can be chronic and quite damaging to their well-being or their quality of life.

Sana Qadar: Yeah, let's talk about the chronic damaging end of procrastination for a moment. What characterizes that end?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yeah, so really with any behavior, what determines whether it's a problem is the impact it has on your overall mental health, well-being, or your quality of life. So if the procrastination doesn't have any damaging consequences, then I guess it's not really a problem. Right. But chronic procrastination, you know, delaying things over and over again, or delaying certain things all of the time, is likely to have negative effects. So if it's a work task, you know, you might get in trouble with your boss. If it's your kind of life admin, you might just never get around to things and start, you know, missing bills or having an untidy, unclean house. If it's your study, you might notice that your grades start failing. And also how we feel about our procrastination can also then make it a problem if we tend to feel very negatively, if we have, you know, shame or guilt, a worry about procrastination. And we do it a lot. That can also then create a kind of feedback loop of a negative emotional pattern.

Sana Qadar: I don't know if you heard me there, but I was starting to laugh a bit when you got to bills.Because I feel like you're touching a nerve with me. Can I tell you my story of procrastination?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Of course. Yes, please.

Sana Qadar: Oh my gosh. I think I'm a chronic procrastinator. I have it real bad. I have it on one hand work-wise. Every week when I start the script or when I delay starting the script for the next episode and then delaying starting the edit for that episode, like every week I have a pattern of freaking out and thinking, oh god, I got to start the next script. I got to start the next edit until a point where I'm like, I have to do this. Otherwise, I will miss my deadlines. And partly I think that's because I just I don't get much of a breather between finishing one edit and having to start another. So I think that's partly the pace of my schedule. Anyways, that's not the bills one. The bills one is bad. And that one I think is because of task paralysis. I at one point racked up five years of unsorted out taxes. And so as each year clicked by, the panic would just sort of rise, but then I'd shove it further down. And then every now and then at night, my rumination spirals would land on my taxes and how I haven't done them and how I'm so overwhelmed. And then it was just it was this pattern that continued for five years. It was just such ridiculous behavior until I finally was about to be hit with a really big consequence, shall we say, of not doing my taxes for five years. And so I did them. Is that like a really abnormal story? Am I completely off the charts bad? Or tell me how this fits into what you've heard.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Give my professional opinion as a psychologist.

Sana Qadar: How messed up is my procrastination?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: No, it's a really, really normal behavior. It's really common. And I think what interests me as a psychologist is kind of what's underneath the behavior. And it really does depend on your unique circumstances. There is a lot of research into procrastination. So because it's a behavior, it can also be a symptom. So if you have perfectionism, for example, one of the symptoms associated with perfectionism, a fear of getting things wrong or failing something is to put it off. That kind of makes logical sense in a way, even though it might be harmful.

Sana Qadar: Gosh, that's what I feel every week with the edits and the scripts. I think, oh, my God, it's going to be terrible. I'm not going to be able to do a good job. And so I delay.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yeah, exactly. Maybe if it's an assignment, for example, there might be a thought around, well, I need at least two hours to write a perfect assignment and I don't have two hours. So I just won't do it at all. Whereas a non-perfectionist might say, oh, you know, I've got half an hour now. Might as well make a go, see how I get on kind of thing.

Sana Qadar: Wish I could have that brain.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yes. I think the research also shows that as well as perfectionism, that having low self-esteem is quite often associated with procrastination. So similarly, and perfectionism and low self-esteem do also go hand in hand. So this kind of fear of failure of getting it wrong with perfectionism, but with low self-esteem, it can be this underlying belief about ourselves that, you know, we're not going to do a good job. So why bother? Or we're not going to get it right. So there's no point because we just kind of rubbish everything.

Sana Qadar: Gosh, OK. And then with something like taxes, what's the delay there about? Because, you know, I don't have any self-esteem issues bound up in my taxes, really.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yeah, that's a great question as well. So we tend to procrastinate tasks that we find boring, that we find frustrating, that have no sense of personal meaning or value to us, and also those that we resent doing. So that's kind of research-backed reasons why we procrastinate.

Sana Qadar: That feels like ding, ding, ding for the taxes box.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yeah, tick, tick, tick. It might tick a lot of those boxes. And procrastination, so broadly speaking, with most of those examples, it can simply be like an avoidance of an unpleasant emotion that comes with a task. So money and finances is one of those. It's a real worry for a lot of people, financial stress. And so if that stress surrounding finances and tax returns or whatever it might be, paying bills, if you don't know how you're going to pay the bills, then if you have one land in your letterbox, do you want to open it or do you not want to open it? Similarly, if you have emotional tasks like speaking to someone who, you know, their parent had passed away and they had been procrastinating going to the house and clearing it all out. And, you know, that makes sense because that's going to involve a lot of negative emotions. I was also speaking to somebody else the other day who was procrastinating changing their name on a passport. And we talked about how that might be actually something to do with what that signifies for that person, you know, giving up their original name and taking on their husband's name and so on and so forth. So depending on what it is, it can be kind of a window into our emotional world. And it can also be simply that we are human beings and we tend to pursue positive emotions and avoid negative emotions.

Sana Qadar: This is All in the Mind from ABC Radio National. I'm Sana Qadar. So sometimes procrastination is the result of perfectionism, sometimes boredom, and sometimes, to come back to our original focus, it's the result of task paralysis. So we talked about how ADHD can lead to task paralysis. Is perfectionism related to task paralysis as well? Like what are some of the other reasons people might get task paralysis?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yeah, that's a good point. If we're talking about task paralysis being a reaction to threat, like a fight-flight response where the person is kind of frozen, any significant amount of anxiety can create that. So if your perfectionism is really, really strong and you are very, very worried to the point of having extreme anxiety about the task, then you could also have task paralysis.

Eva: Generally, I don't consider myself to be a per-

Sana Qadar: Perfectionist?

Eva: Yeah, that.

Sana Qadar: This is 13-year-old high schooler Eva again.

Eva: I guess sometimes I can be like, oh, well, if I hand this in, I might get like a C or a D or something, even though I know I probably won't. But I'll just convince myself I probably will. And so then I'm just like, OK, you're not going to do this task at all.

Sana Qadar: Eva wonders whether her task paralysis might be tied to depression because she's been struggling with her mental health recently. And obviously, depression greatly impacts motivation.

Eva: I have noticed it's a pattern. If I'm like doing really bad on my mental health one day or I've gotten overwhelmed, then I just also shut down.

Sana Qadar: What's the biggest consequence you've had to face because of your task paralysis?

Eva: I usually get away with handing in tasks late. So it's not that bad. I guess like maybe my grade's gone down to a B instead of an A because I handed in really, really late. But yeah, no major consequences.

Sana Qadar: And do teachers ever get annoyed by being asked for extensions often or are they OK?

Eva: They're OK because I'm just like, they know I go to wellbeing a lot and stuff. And I guess I can get away with a lot because of that. I can just be like, yes, I'm not doing too great with my mental health. Like, oh, they already know. And then they kind of just say yes to me. And I guess it helps that I guess I would call myself a super communicator to some degree.

Sana Qadar: That is Eva referencing one of our episodes from last year, which was titled The Skills Super Communicators Use, Which You Can Learn Too. We'll link to it in our show notes if you're curious.

Eva: So like I'm really good with talking. And so most of the teachers like me, especially since like in class discussions, I can find it really easy to like really build on to what they're saying and stuff. Whereas no one else will put up their hands. So most of the teachers like me, which really helps.

Sana Qadar: Yeah, I'm sure that would help.

Sana Qadar: You can see why her dad's nickname for her is Clever Eva, right?

Sana Qadar: And you're saying like you haven't had any consequences kind of from teachers or schoolwork or whatever. But I wonder if do you feel like the consequences kind of internal at the moment in terms of like how your mind dwells on the things you have to do and then gets frustrated or gets anxious about it?

Eva: It's definitely very internal because I'm like, why can't I do this? Like last year, started last year in primary school, I could finish tasks really quickly, really easily. And then it kind of just like weighs on me. And sometimes I guess at school, if it's like a not a great day and I have a lot of tasks, I guess metaphorically, it kind of feels like you can't breathe or like someone's holding you underwater. And it's just like this pressure.

Sana Qadar: Is there a part of you that thinks like at all that you know you'll be able to potentially get an extension? And so because there's that safety net there, you like stay in the task process? Like, do you know what I mean? Do you feel like you know you have a little bit of a safety net? So maybe in some ways doesn't help.

Eva: I feel like sometimes, yeah, in some ways I'm just like, yeah, having that safety net, I guess I'm not going to be able to do it. I guess I don't find as much motivation to do it because it's like it's so far in the future. But at the same time, I feel like it can help because then it's like I wouldn't feel that sense of doom as much.

Sana Qadar: Yeah, yeah.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: It's so amazing that as a 13 year old, she's kind of aware of her own behaviour patterns, which is not an easy feat for anyone, let alone someone who's in their early teens and still kind of their brain still developing. So that's really great because that's the first step if you do want to change anything.

Sana Qadar: We're going to get to behavioural change strategies, but I just want to clarify something first. We've been talking about task paralysis and procrastination as though they're both always negative things. And while that's true for task paralysis, it's pretty much only negative. It is not a pleasant feeling. Procrastination doesn't have to be. It can be a neutral and possibly even a positive, depending on your outlook. Here is one example.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: There's also research showing that some people just enjoy the pressure and work well under the pressure of a tight deadline. And so they create a tight deadline by delaying a task. And that can be quite beneficial for them. So there's always two sides to every coin, I guess.

Sana Qadar: God, I don't know if I enjoy the tight deadline, but I guess it does motivate me.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yes, yeah. And sometimes we do. We just motivate ourselves knowing. And if we have a belief in ourselves that, you know, this is our pattern and it's always – if there's an underlying belief that, you know, it is always going to get done because this is what I've been doing for however many years, then it doesn't necessarily cause as much overwhelm and stress as if we genuinely believe that there will be big consequences if we engage in this pattern. And I think there's another aspect. I've done a few interviews about this topic. And there's another aspect that seems to come up a lot when I talk to people about their own circumstances is that we are all just so incredibly busy a lot of the time. And our to-do lists are, you know, massive and we're often juggling multiple demands, work, life, parenting, study, you know, multiple stresses. And when we're in a kind of perpetual state of busyness, our sense of urgency can kind of just naturally increase. And we might apply that sense of urgency to all tasks ahead of us because it's kind of a shortcut when they may not be that urgent. I talk to a lot of people saying, you know, I'm procrastinating this and I'm procrastinating that and is that bad? And my first question is, well, does it need to be done? Does it need to be done right now? And the answer, funnily enough, a lot of the time is no. And so sometimes we can create like really high demands on ourselves. Again, that can lead into things like perfectionism.

Sana Qadar: What kind of tasks fall into that basket of not needing to get done but being the subject of procrastination?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: I think there's things like, you know, it might be like cleaning the car or doing some life admin or things that we might think, oh, I haven't done that for ages. But if we really stopped and asked ourselves, OK, does it need to be done today? Can I just take that off my plate for a second so I can kind of engage my sense of calm and then prioritize, which is one of the kind of remedies for procrastination, which we can come on to.

Sana Qadar: Let's move on to that now. And we'll start with big picture, longer term things that you can do. And then we'll get down to more immediate strategies.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: So the first step is like recognizing that it's happening in any behavior change. The first step is always to kind of admit that you're doing it.

Sana Qadar: I feel like I always get stuck on that step. Like I've recognized a lot. I haven't moved past that very much.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: It's a very hard step. But recognizing that you're doing it, you know, noticing patterns, is it certain tasks? Is it all tasks? Then the next step would be understanding the reason why, because the strategies for managing procrastination will differ depending on the reasons why. So if it's task paralysis due to an ADHD diagnosis, then strategies to manage the ADHD, whether it's medication or through talking therapy that can help with improving that executive control, organization planning, self-awareness, that kind of thing.

Sana Qadar: Similarly, if the thing underlying your procrastination is perfectionism, you might need help to work on that before you can properly shift your behavior.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: So there are really good treatments for things like low self-esteem and perfectionism. The leading evidence-based treatment is called cognitive behavior therapy or CBT.

Sana Qadar: This is a topic we've covered extensively on All in the Mind. And in fact, we did an episode about CBT for perfectionism not too long ago. It's called Outwardly Impressive, Losing it on the Inside, the Cognitive Distortions of a High Achiever. We'll link to that in our show notes as well.

Sana Qadar: Then there are some more immediate strategies. If you tend to procrastinate tasks that you find really boring or annoying, then one trick is to schedule them for the start of your day.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: If you tend to leave your most boring tasks to the end of the day, it's much more likely that they're just going to drop off your list altogether for that day. So if you flip kind of your calendar essentially upside down and then focus the rest of your day on things that you maybe find more enjoyable or maybe aren't as arduous.

Sana Qadar: Other strategies are things you might have heard before like rewarding yourself for completing a task so you get some positive reinforcement.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: It could be with like a self-care activity, it could be connecting with a friend.

Sana Qadar: Or the classic breaking big tasks into smaller components.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Which is really handy if you've got something that feels quite overwhelming is to just break the tasks down into small steps.

Sana Qadar: The old how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. I'll admit none of these are exactly earth shattering but they can be helpful and that last one at least has helped me stay on top of my taxes. But here's another way you can look at your behaviour. If you're finding your procrastination is starting to rob you of time for other things that you'd rather be doing. If your weeks are just rolling by in a slog of delayed tasks, getting anxious about those tasks, then cramming to finish those tasks that you should have just done earlier.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: There's a model in psychotherapy called the ACE model where good well-being and positive mental health is promoted as long as we have a balance of activities in the week. And these activities are things that give us a sense of achievement, things that bring us a sense of closeness and things that give us a sense of enjoyment. So it's really easy to remember ACE, achievement, closeness, enjoyment. And as long as we have a balance of activities that tick those boxes across the week, then we tend to be doing pretty well in ourselves.

Sana Qadar: I love that as a measure of like knowing as a way to like quantify was this a good week and how can you figure that out?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yeah, how many C's did I have? How many E's? And literally in therapy this is what we do. We ask people to write what they do every waking hour of their day and then rate how much out of 10 achievement did that give you? What about the C's and what about the E's? So what we find a lot of the time is people with high anxiety, perfectionism, low self-esteem. It's not that they're not doing anything, but most of the time the page is filled with A's.

Sana Qadar: Right, right.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: We're all very good at, you know, we just task focus getting from one thing to the next and we neglect the closeness and the enjoyment element out of our lives. And I think procrastination has a big part to play in this because people don't typically procrastinate tasks to do really nice things. They usually just do something else that's like just not as bad.

Sana Qadar: It's like scrolling instead of doing this task.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yes, exactly. Or I won't do this assignment, I'll do that one.

Sana Qadar: Or even if you do decide to like, I don't know, go to a spa and get a massage while you're procrastinating, you can't actually enjoy it because in the back of your mind you're still buzzing with this task you got to do.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Exactly. That stress can kind of leak into that kind of positive time.

Sana Qadar: The visual I have of it is like the longer you push a task away, the more it starts to leak, you know, its juices into the rest of your life.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Yes, absolutely. And the bigger it becomes in your mind. But I will say that one, there are some people that can use procrastination as self-care.

Sana Qadar: What?

Dr Catherine Houlihan: So this is like the flip side of procrastination. We go back to the ACEs, achievement, closeness, enjoyment. If you are putting off some of those achievement tasks in order to prioritize like closeness and enjoyment activities and there will be no consequences to your quality of life, your well-being or your practical life, your work, your study, etc then go for it.

Sana Qadar: Right. So like instead of cleaning your car, go hang out with friends. That's okay.

Dr Catherine Houlihan: Exactly. Yes. Just don't let the dust get too thick because then you might develop some health problems or something.

Sana Qadar: That is clinical psychologist Dr. Catherine Houlihan from the University of the Sunshine Coast. Massive thank you to Eva for emailing us to pitch the idea for today's show and for sharing her experience of task paralysis. I wanted to get an update on how she went with that science project she had been delaying. So I gave her a ring. Here's what she said.

Eva: I got an extension on it and then I finished it on the last day of the school holidays.

Sana Qadar: Right. Okay. At the last day of your extension?

Eva: Yeah.

Sana Qadar: And how did you do on it? What did you get? What marks?

Eva: I think I got a B.

Sana Qadar: Okay. That's not bad.

Eva: Yeah. I was pretty happy with that because I handed it out so late.

Sana Qadar: That is it for All in the Mind this week. The great irony is I'm actually wrapping up the edit for this episode a week early, which never happens. Of course it would on this one. Whatever. I'll take it. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr, senior producer James Bullen, and sound engineer Simon Branthwaite. I'm Sana Qadar. Thanks for listening. I'll catch you next time.